Global South Primates response to Archbishop Rowan Williams

  Archbishop Rowan Williams
  Lambeth Palace
  London

  November 15th, 2005

 

Thank you, your Grace, for coming to join us at the Third South South Encounter in   Egypt and sharing your thoughts on the four “marks” of the Church as “one, holy, catholic and apostolic.” Your attempt to take on this major topic in sweeping   strokes was bold, and it was delivered with your usual scholarly eloquence. We   agree with what you said. We were disappointed in what you left unsaid, in   particular, the application of the Church’s identity to the current situation   that has left the fabric of our Communion torn at its deepest   level.

 

It   should come as no surprise to you that we consider the crisis facing the whole   Communion to be a crisis of Biblical authority. For that reason, one of the   consistent themes of the entire South to South Encounter has been the supremacy   of Scripture and the clarity of its teaching on matters of Christian faith and   life.

 

We   were pleased by your positive comments regarding the four papers that were   presented to the Encounter. Although it could not be expected that you would   interact in a detailed way with them, you could not have failed to have noticed   that each paper strongly asserted the authority of Scripture and applied this   theme to the current crisis.

 

They   were able to do this because two features marked each paper: First, the attempt   to expound biblical theology, reflecting the authority of scripture. Second, the   recognition that the four marks of the Church are traditionally used to   establish its calling and identity and to delineate its borders. It is for this   reason the theme of “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” is particularly apt for   this Encounter.

 

Your   approach was to link the marks of the church to one another through Jesus   Christ. They are his attributes before they are the attributes of the Church.  You referred in particular to Jesus’ High Priestly prayer: “Sanctify them by the   truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into   the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.”  (John 17.17-19)

 

Promising though this approach is, and in many ways   consonant with the gospel, it seemed to offer a way of bypassing rather than   expounding the specificity of Scripture. In a sense it transcends the other   approaches offered here at the Encounter, but with the danger of a lack of   specific application.

 

Thus,  for example, your account of the holiness of the Church focuses on the holiness   secured by Christ at the cross and the consequent holiness as a gift to those   who are in union with Christ. But you did not take the next step, so obvious in   the Epistles, of showing how this holiness of union with Christ is demonstrated   in the obedience to the word of God.

 

Even   within the Johannine literature, the connection between faith in Jesus and   obedience to his commandments appears repeatedly:

 

If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John   14.15)

 

“If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love,  just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” (John   15.10)

 

“By this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his   commandments.” (I John 2.3)

 

“All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in   them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given   us.” (I John 3.24)

 

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his   commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.” (I John   5.3)

After   all, this truth must lie at the heart of holiness: that we so depend on the Lord   that we are obedient to his word, whatever the cost. And in the Epistles, this   holiness is the holiness of the Church, the holiness of those who build each   other up, and also the holiness that must be defended in controversy against   false teachers, whether legalists or libertines.

This   surely is the context of the Gospel of John because a line has already been   drawn against those who have resisted the claims of Christ. John chapters 13-17   are addressed to those who not only have the commandments but also keep them.  John 15 warns of the pruning or cutting away of dead branches that have failed   to bear fruit because of not abiding in Him and His word. The stark contrast of   the language of light/darkness, seeing/blind, life/death shows clearly that   there is the realization that disobedience will lead to division and   exclusion.

You   did offer an indication of how a Christ-centred method may be applied in   controversy. You scanned the New Testament for controversies of such magnitude   that the unity of the Church was threatened. You instanced two such challenges:  over the Person of Christ (I John 2.22) and over the Grace of the Gospel   (Galatians 1.8 and 3.2).

By   using the same method, however, we may also speedily find another challenge to   the unity of the body of Christ posed by unrepented sexual immorality, an   offence so flagrant that Paul insisted that the sinner be expelled from the   fellowship, and one of a type of sin which he said would cut the offender off   from the kingdom of heaven (I Corinthians 5 and 6). So relevant is this to the   present crisis in the Communion that we regret that you did not either use it as   an illustration of activities that is capable of breaking unity or explain why   moral teaching and behaviour is different from other Church-dividing   essentials.

Indeed, it is not hard to find in the teaching of Scripture   other instances of behaviour and beliefs which require the cessation of   fellowship and the breach of unity. The Second Letter of Peter, which you quoted   in terms of our participation in the divine nature (1.4) describes division in   the church uncannily like the false leaders in our Communion   today:

“For,  uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh   men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. They promise them   freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is   enslaved.” (II Peter 2.18-19)

During   our daily Bible Studies on 1 and 2 Peter we could not miss the solemn warning   about the danger of false prophets among us (note especially the series of “ifs”  in 2 Peter 2.4,5). We were reminded, sadly, that there will be ‘ignorant and   unstable ‘ people who, finding Paul’s sayings “hard” because of the call to   holiness and godliness, will twist [them] to their own destruction.” (2 Peter   3.17)

This   all reminds us of the points established for us at this Encounter, that the   marks of the Church summon us to vigilance concerning its faithfulness to   apostolic teaching and mission, its unity in the truth of God’s word, its holy   obedience to the word of the Lord, and the embrace of its catholicity in the   wholeness of the authentic gospel which it offers all.

The   essence of libertinism is the severing of the grace of Christ from his moral   commandments. This, we believe, is at the heart of our present divisions.  Although it is right to be reminded both of the grace of God in Christ and of   our own frailty and sinfulness, neither the greatness of grace nor the   sinfulness of sin can be advanced as reasons for failing in our duty to guard   the gospel. The church is, after all, “a pillar and buttress of truth” (I   Timothy 3.15) and “Your word is truth” (John 17.17).

Questions and   Answers

We are   grateful for your willingness to answer the many questions that our members   wished to ask, and we hope that you may take time to answer some of those that   were not mentioned in the session. Having said this, we do feel that on a number   of points your replies raised more questions.

 

Human Sexuality   and Authority

 

1. We   appreciated your acknowledgement of the “overwhelming consensus” of the Church   in time and space in believing that sex is intended by God for married couples   only and therefore that same-sex sex is unacceptable and cannot be described as   “holy and blessed”. You stated that you as Archbishop must stand with this   consensus. We are most grateful for your unequivocal words. We wonder, however,  whether your personal dissent from this consensus prevents you from taking the   necessary steps to confront those churches that have embraced teaching contrary   to the overwhelming testimony of the Anglican Communion and the church catholic.  We urge you to rethink your personal view and embrace the Church’s consensus and   to act on it, based as it is on the clear witness of   Scripture.

 

2. In   the matter of the Civil Partnerships Act, we appreciate the dilemma faced by   bishops as members of the House of Lords of the English Government. The   willingness of the Government to override clear Christian teaching in an area of   life where the church has a unique role raises a serious question whether the   church-state relationship is obsolete and a hindrance to the Gospel. According   to your explanation, the Roman Catholic Church was able to seek a conscientious   exception to the Act for the very reason that it was not part of the   Establishment. Surely the Church of England should have sought a similar   exception. Not doing so gives the appearance of evil with regard to its   “partnered” clergy even if meaningful discipline is exercised and you failed to   mention the implication of this new act with regard to the laity that will force   all parish clergy to accept openly gay partners to the altar rail on penalty of   church discipline.
 

 

Instruments of   Unity and the Anglican Communion

 

3. We   welcome your pastoral example of coming amongst us as presiding Primate of the   Anglican Communion. We recognize the limitations on your office, as the   Communion has few legal structures. We agree with you that a Communion Covenant   is needed. However, we are troubled by your reluctance to use your moral   authority to challenge the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada to   call for the immediate cessation of any blessings of same sex unions and on any   ordinations of those in such unions in every diocese in the Episcopal Church USA   and the Anglican Church of Canada. The apostle Paul never invoked law for his   churches (indeed there was no canon law at that time), but he nevertheless   exhorted them to be of one mind with him and to conform their lives to apostolic   tradition (II Thessalonians 2.15). We do not see why you cannot warn these   churches now, based on the Windsor Report and your own convictions about unity,  that they will not be invited to Lambeth 2008 unless they truly   repent.
 

 

Miscellaneous   Questions

 

4. In   regard to the appointment exclusively of first-world liberals to head the   Communion Secretariat and committees like the Panel of Reference, we are   disappointed with your deferring to “process.” You seem to keep saying, “My   hands are tied.” We urge you to untie your hands and provide the bold, inclusive   leadership the Communion needs at this time of crisis and distrust. One area of   particular concern is the manner in which people are appointed to the various   commissions and task forces, often without the knowledge or recommendation of   their Province. We are more than ready to offer you the names of gifted, and   highly competent men and women who could serve to guide our Communion into the   future.

 

5. We   are glad that you are concerned about new approaches to evangelism in England.  We know that Europe has become a spiritual desert, with the European Union even   proposing to drop reference to the heritage of Christianity from its   Constitution. We urge that re-evangelization and mission to Europe be a top   priority of the Church of England and we pledge our   support.

 

6. We   also agree with your desire to listen to Muslim views and understanding their   context. We applaud the initiatives that you have taken to engage in such   conversations. We were pleased to hear your conviction that in all such   conversations we pray for opportunities to make a grace-filled presentation of   the unique claims of Christ. However, we are troubled by your reference to   “crude threatening proselytizing.” None of us would support such an approach   during these critical times and we wonder to whom you were   referring?
 

 

Personal

 

7. We   appreciate your sharing the testimony of your own pilgrimage of faith, including   your early encounter with Russian Orthodoxy. We agree there is much to learn   from other traditions, such as the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Baptists and   Pentecostals, who are equally part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic   church. We are sure you must feel the shame caused by the brokenness within our   own Communion when you interact with these churches ecumenically.

 

Once   again, we wish to commend you for taking the effort to be with us in   Egypt.

 

With   gratitude and fraternal greetings

 

 

 

Your   brothers in Christ,

 

  The Most Rev’d Peter J. Akinola   (Church of Nigeria)
  The Most Rev’d Dr. Justice Akrofi   (West Africa)
  The Most Rev’d Fidele Dirokpa   (Congo)
  The Most Rev’d Emmanuel Kolini   (Rwanda)
  The Most Rev’d. Bernard Malango   (Central Africa)
  The Most Rev’d Dr. Joseph Marona   (Sudan)
  The Most Rev’d Benjamin Nzimbi   (Kenya)
  The Most Rev’d Henry Orombi   (Uganda)
  The Most Rev’d Remi J. Rabenirina   (Indian Ocean)
  The Most Rev’d Ignacio Soliba   (Philippines)
  The Most Rev’d Gregory Venables   (Southern Cone)
  The Most Rev’d Yong Ping Chung   (SE Asia)

 

Present but had to leave before   the final draft was circulated:

 

The Most Rev’d Donald Mtetemela   (Tanzania)
  The Most Rev’d Bernard Ntahoturi   (Burundi)
  The Most Rev’d Dr. Peter   Sugandhar (Church of South India)

 

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/15 at 10:26 PM
  1. Dear Friends,

    Grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

    It was my great privilege to witness the bold statements of faith of several of these good warriors at the conference in Pittsburgh.  What a joy to have such leadership in our Communion at such a pivotal time.  May God continue to bless your bold and unashamed defense of the Gospel!

    Yours faithfully in Christ,

    Darin+
    St. Paul’s, Durant, Iowa
    An ACN congregation

    Posted by The Rev'd Darin Lovelace  on  11/17  at  06:15 AM
  2. “My hands are tied.” We urge you to untie your hands and provide the bold, inclusive leadership the Communion needs at this time of crisis and distrust.”

    Sounds like loyal troops not interested in leaving but patiently waiting for leadership to act. - definitely not schism except the leadership has other ideas.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/17  at  04:38 PM
  3. Interesting letter, but I think I’ll continue to be guided by Desmond Tutu: Anglicanism “used to be known for embodying the attribute of comprehensiveness, of inclusiveness, where we were meant to accommodate all and diverse views, saying we may differ in our theology but we belong together as sisters and brothers… God must look on and God must weep.”

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/17  at  06:07 PM
  4. #4 Stuart
    Not too sure about Desmond Tutu but I would rather be guided by the Lambeth Fathers (1920):
    “…the Churches represented in [the Communion] are indeed independent, but dependent with the Christian freedom which recognises the restraints of truth and love. They are not free to deny the truth. They are not free to ignore the fellowship.”
    As for the idea of a “weeping God,” I wonder why that image is so prevalent in modern times cf to “angry God?” Just consider what issues the modern Church is appalled with - and thta of our forefathers.

    I don’t think God has changed - we have.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/17  at  08:15 PM
  5. We read with bemusement a Times article (17 Nov) with the sensational opening line:

    “THE Anglican Church came closer to schism last night after 14 evangelical archbishops condemned the Church of England as evil and singled out the Archbishop of Canterbury for personal attack…”

    This letter is simply a response to his talk and Q&A session at the 3rd Encounter. If it took so long, the reason was because it went through various drafts as the Primates worked on it after the Encounter. As for timing, it was not posted deliberately with any event in mind, let alone the COE Synod.

    The letter is not condemning anyone, certainly not the COE or Archbishop Rowan Williams.

    We hope common sense, integrity and professional journalism will prevail and letters such as the above are read in their proper and full context.

    Maybe we should just listen to each other (source) and not via the Public Media.

    GSA Admin

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/18  at  04:00 PM
  6. It is a shame that the release of this letter may have been mishandled. However, I have to say it is enormously helpful. It is very rare indeed to see the Archbishop engaged in true and open dialogue - that is to say, a conversation that goes past the first two contributions. Here in the UK, he is treated with an almost sycophantic respect by some and simply confuses the others. The Primates have done what a lot of us have wanted to do - listened to the Archbishop and then put our questions to him. It is to be hoped this dialogue will continue - and will continue in public!

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/18  at  05:34 PM
  7. Having learned that this was meant to be a private letter which you have now published on the internet, your comment that “Maybe we should just listen to each other (source) and not via the Public Media” strikes me as mere weasel words. Did you realise that the letter was intended to be a private one and not for publication?

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/18  at  07:49 PM
  8. See the latest reports on this on Ekklesia (http://www.ekklesia.co.uk). It would help if GSA could clarify the circumstances surrounding the release of this text, which I believe was first made public on this site. Regarding John R’s comment: it seems unfair to say that Dr Williams rarely engages in open dialogue - he has made considerable attempt to do so on these issues, and has faced vilification when he has tried to get beyond theological slogans or has declined simply to endorse what some see as “self-evident” in scripture, tradition or Anglican polity.

    Posted by Simon Barrow  on  11/18  at  08:45 PM
  9. Micheal,#7 If this site Admin has not removed the letter by now, it only goes to say that the response to ++Rowan was not meant to be private. Still waiting for very good attempts to disprove what our primates concluded. Surely, like John, #6 I have been helped.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/18  at  09:34 PM
  10. This is a very sad affair - the image it casts of the Church of Jesus Christ is a poor one, ever more seen as a den of power games and infighting. The Archbishop doesn’t deserve to be abused the way he is, by so many sides with thier competing demands upon him. Rowan Williams has been one of the most consistently sane voices in this whole controversy - calling for a recogition of the humanity of those with whom you might disagree - and yet impatient people would rater not listen. Please leave him alone, and show a little care. Let us pray that some sense comes to the whole communion soon enough…

    Posted by Laurence  on  11/18  at  11:08 PM
  11. The GSA Admin’s disavowals above are highly disingenious in light of the fact that at least two of the alleged signatories have distanced themselves from the letter and were unaware of the fact that it would be made public. Surely by now their names should have been removed from the list above, and their objections also cast considerable doubt on the integrity of the entire process. The further claims of a beneficent ‘dialogical’ intention behind the letter are simply not sustained by either its content or tone. The alleged ‘bemusement’ which the GSA Admin avers it experienced on reading the Times article simply seem in poor taste.

    It would seem high time for the truth surrounding the publication of the letter to be made public. who approved the letter? Who signed it? Who approved its publication and appended fictitious signatories who were unaware of this fact? Why has the list of signatories not been revised?

    Rather than expressing ‘bemusement’ and making disingenious references to ‘unhelpful’ interpretations, both of which insult the intelligence of the average reader, it’s time for those responsible in GSA to come clean.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/18  at  11:16 PM
  12. I heard read the hype surrounding the letter and felt compelled to read it for myself.  It strikes me as a well written and well balanced letter written with humility and kindness.

    As a Baptist Pastor in Englnd I watch with helpless horror as the country continues to slide into moral depravity.  Thank goodness for men of God outside the country who rally to our aid to point out the need to address these issues.

    Paul Jackson

    Posted by Paul Jackson  on  11/18  at  11:57 PM
  13. Obviously, Paulo is yet to read the press release recently posted on ths site “Press Release”
    and may need to actually read the entire response letter to understand the ‘bemusement’

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/18  at  11:58 PM
  14. The letter of the african bishops is wrong.

    In Nigeria (The Most Rev’d Peter J. Akinola,Church of Nigeria), in Sudan (The Most Rev’d Dr. Joseph Marona Sudan), in Kenya (The Most Rev’d Benjamin Nzimbi Kenya), in Uganda (The Most Rev’d Henry Orombi Uganda)and in some other african and asian countries homosexuality is still illegal. Untill today in that states were no discussion over homosexuality.

    But in all european countries, in Australia/New Sealand, in South-America, in North-America, in EastAsia (Japan, China, Vietnam,..) homosexuality is legal. In this part of the world we hat during the last 50 years a long discussion over homosexuality.

    So the african/asian bishops should work in their countries for a better life of gay people. Gay people in Nigeria, Uganda, Sudan, Egypt or Tanzania should have the same rights which they have in european countries.

    So i hope that in the future in Africa will be a better time for gay couples.

    And the bible says nothing against gay couples. In Germany, in Denmark, in Sweden, in the Netherlands gay couples get in evangelical churches a blessing and that is wonderful.

    With gratitude and fraternal greetings

    Gerd

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  12:33 AM
  15. The archbishops’ letter shows much careful thought, and some charity - though perhaps not much open-mindedness.

    Of more concern to some of us is the way questions of sexual morality are elevated to the status of shibboleths, while other moral issues receive much less attention. Biblical injunctions to honour parents, and to discipline children, for example, are increasingly ignored. The harm done is incalculable. These attitudes are as sinful as any sexual misbehaviour, yet seem not to raise the temperature of debate anything like as much.

    Nondum considerasti quanti ponderis sit peccatum.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  12:55 AM
  16. In response to Tunde (#13), and further to my earlier response (#11), I can assure him I have indeed read the entire response - numerous times.

    While the letter raises questions concerning ecclesiology and practice, its entreaties are rhetorically founded on the assumption that theological and hermeneutic presuppositions are shared by both its authors and their intended interlocutors. As the authors themselves are well aware, this is not the case. What the letter does not say, but what it clearly intends to highlight, is that these differing pressuppositions underlie any secondary disagreement on sexual morality. It is therefore using a secondary issue to try to force (through its strategic rhetorical assumption that the interlocutors share its presuppositions on ecclesiology and revelation) these primary issues and differences into the light. The letter is thus in no sense a simple benevolent dialogical tool, but a strategic one around deep-seated disagreements on method.

    With reference to Archbishop Akinola’s recent response - I must say that to the observer it sheds little light on the matter, simply highlighting that there was, and is, no agreement concerning the letter by its alleged signatories, and that certainly no concensus regarding publication was reached (how else would the current dissent be explained, except through further unhelpful accusations of cowardice, or a change of mind?).

    The waters remain muddy, and good will alas in very very short supply.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  12:58 AM
  17. Being that at least two of the Bishops whose names appear at the end of this letter are repudiating its’ contents, I call into question the motives behind it and the method of its preparation.

    It is shameful to ignore the deep and profound blessing of discernment that was involved in Gene Robinson’s elevation to Bishop and in the decision of Canada to bless gay couples.  It defies the Doctrine of Reason and the way our church is structured.

    For the dishonorable and dishonest use of God’s word to justify bigotry and hatred, I say: “Shame!”  It is for God to separate the wheat from the tares, not us.  Those who obsess over the sexual behavior of others usually have profound problems of their own.

    There are many, many churches in America espousing the principle that gay people are second-class citizens.  The Episcopal Church is not - and never will be - one of them.  I cordially invite my brethren who wish this were not so to join the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas, headed by the charming Reverend Fred Phelps, if they wish to use God’s word to spread hatred. 

    Eradicating God’s children from God’s house based on their sexual orientation has become a priority that outstrips feeding the hungry, providing disaster relief, and educating the poor.  God help us all!

    Your brother in Christ,
    Joseph

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  02:51 AM
  18. Who is gsa admin I wonder?  Are we not entitled to know who runs this website and has made the decision to publish a private letter to the Archbishop?  The Primates’ letter refers disparagingly (and inaccurately) to Western Liberals being appointed to key posts.  Who make up the various teams that are supporting the Global South Primates?

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  03:48 AM
  19. Having just read the Archbishop’s letter & the responses on this site, I am amazed at the criticism of the Archbishops’letter. As one who has read biographies of those who are committed to Jesus Christ in past centuries & having read of present day martyrs for my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ, I am so proud be aligned with the writers of this letter to the AofC. What they write witnesses to my spirit about the TRUTH of Scripture.I was in ‘nondenoms’ for 20 years & I was taught that the Word of God was true. I have experienced peace, strength & healing in my life & the life of my Family.  I never learned that in the episc church (believe me I searched for it). Four years ago the Lord brought me back to the episc church.  If I had realized what had gone on in this church for these past years, I probably would not have returned.  In the past four years, the Lord has taught me to stand for HIM in this place. I thank my God for these godly men that are in leadership in the Global South.  I thank God for the men & women who are willing to stand firm for the Gospel of Jesus Christ without compromise.  Such ones as these will our Christ say ‘well done my good & faithful servant.’  With them as my examples (as well as the apostle Paul), I hope & trust that I will hear the same words spoken to me.
    Thank you mighty men of valor.  Blessings in the name of Jesus, 
    a simple layman, Nancy

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  05:02 AM
  20. Well, Nancy, if you consider signing the name of someone to a letter without their authorization a virtue of which God would approve, perhaps the Episcopal Church is not for you either.

    But to me, that’s not “standing firm for the Gospel of Jesus Christ without compromise.”

    It’s Machiavelli. 

    Your brother in Christ,
    Joseph

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  05:17 AM
  21. Well done,Global South! You have spoken loud and clear. High time men of God called Rowan Williams and the disastrous liberal establishment of the C of E to account for their feebleness, cowardice and apostasy.

    Under the present ABC the Church of England is letting the people of this country tragically down. Because it is the historical mission, legacy and duty of our Church since the Reformation to minister to the English people. To proclaim and uphold the Gospel to them. By failing the affirm Biblical teachings - indeed, the very mind of Christ - to the nation, The ABC and the majority of bishops are guilty of a grievous sin. The damage, spiritual, moral and practical, they have inflicted on the nation is incalculable. God will judge them.

    Kierkegaard once said that the worse, most tremendous guilt of the Danish Establisehd Church of his day was to have made it impossible for the people even to discern what the teaching of Christ really is.

    Ditto for Rowan and his lot!

    I wonder why St Athanasius’ motto comes to my mind, in these dark days for Christianity in England: “Pro Deo, contra mundum!”

    Carry on, Global South! We need you!

    A turbulent priest

    Fr Frank

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  06:16 AM
  22. well joseph, that was a quick response!!  You are correct, I don’t belong in the episc church as it is today.  I am first a Christian, then Anglican.  Angican is the way I will go, the episc church has walked away.  I am in this apostate church for the time being because the Lord has not yet said to leave.  In that respect I am in good company.  Many are waiting until after ‘06 national convention I suppose.  As you are well aware,many, many have already left.
    Joseph, let’s wait til the full story comes out..you know, about the two who said they did not give permission for their names to be used.  One of them is The Most Rev’d Handford of Jerusalem. From what I have read, he is a bit cozy with ecusa and their money.  Could that be a reason that he does not want to own up to the letter?  Let us wait and see how all of this falls out. 
    Yes, Joseph, I still stand firm with these men of God.  I would take my chances with them rather than the ones who are trying to rewrite the Scriptures, i.e. the so callled Bis Robinson & the ones who affirm homo marriages & homo lifestyles.  Jesus is the One who came to save us from our sins & the lies from satan.  Blessings, Nancy

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  06:24 AM
  23. From Rev. Rowan Williams’ speech:  “In other words, a catholic church is not a church that seeks a uniform global culture. The unity of the church is not cultural; it is in Christ - one Lord, one faith, one baptism - and any number of languages and costumes.”

    So, Nancy, you’d rather stand firm with people who fradulently affix the names of people to official documents without permission, then publish them on the Web to cause strife, and who rewrite the scriptures in a bigoted manner.

    That’s not Anglican, that’s Southern Baptist.

    Those you condemn: the so callled Bis Robinson & the ones who affirm homo marriages & homo lifestyles.  Bishop Robinson was lawfully elected and rightfully holds his title.  No bigot can rob him of it.

    I personally find it easier to accept in loving kindness a gay couple in a committed relationship or a gay person who does God’s will than a mean- spirited bigot who needs to demean others in order to feel better about herself.  (Of course, I see that your IP address is in Texas, where gay bashing is a state sport, so perhaps you are a product of your environment.)

    See, when you talk about ‘homo marriage’, you are speaking of my neighbors - a very nice couple who adopted two children from foster care.  They belong to my church and they are better parents than most.  Their children were once considered ‘at risk’ and the youngest one has HIV.  Now they are consistently on the honor roll and have impeccable manners.  It’s obvious that they love each other.  But to you, their ‘homo marriage’ is not valid.  And you would rob them of the spiritual and legal protections and joys of marriage.

    And Nancy, that tells me everything I need to know about you.  The Lord may not have told you to leave yet, but I will gladly hold the door for you on the way out.

    God help you and any gay men and women that you come into contact with.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Joseph

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  08:36 AM
  24. Fr. Frank, a self described ‘turbulent priest’, writes: The damage, spiritual, moral and practical, they have inflicted on the nation is incalculable. God will judge them.

    God will judge every last one of us.  And from what I read in your comments, sir, he will have quite a bit to say to you on the subject of The Great Commandment.

    Has it ever occurred to you, that as a priest, your calling is not to seek the inequal treatment of any of God’s children?

    It’s not too late.  Repent.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Joseph

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  08:50 AM
  25. Joseph,

    I notice you refer to “bigotry” and “bigots” regularly in your posts.  Two questions: 

    First, do you really, honestly believe that the only reason for resistance to the overthrow of three thousand years of unanimous, unambiguous moral teaching is bigotry?

    Second, why is it, in your view, that proponents of the normalization of homosexual behavior, unable to respond equally theologically to theological and Scriptural criticism of their arguments, invariably seem to turn to ad hominem accusations of “bigotry,” “homophobia” (whatever that may be), and the like?

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/19  at  10:06 AM
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