Global South Primates response to Archbishop Rowan Williams


Archbishop Rowan Williams
Lambeth Palace
London

November 15th, 2005


Thank you, your Grace, for coming to join us at the Third South South Encounter in Egypt and sharing your thoughts on the four “marks” of the Church as “one, holy, catholic and apostolic.” Your attempt to take on this major topic in sweeping strokes was bold, and it was delivered with your usual scholarly eloquence. We agree with what you said. We were disappointed in what you left unsaid, in particular, the application of the Church’s identity to the current situation that has left the fabric of our Communion torn at its deepest level.

It should come as no surprise to you that we consider the crisis facing the whole Communion to be a crisis of Biblical authority. For that reason, one of the consistent themes of the entire South to South Encounter has been the supremacy of Scripture and the clarity of its teaching on matters of Christian faith and life.

We were pleased by your positive comments regarding the four papers that were presented to the Encounter. Although it could not be expected that you would interact in a detailed way with them, you could not have failed to have noticed that each paper strongly asserted the authority of Scripture and applied this theme to the current crisis.

They were able to do this because two features marked each paper: First, the attempt to expound biblical theology, reflecting the authority of scripture. Second, the recognition that the four marks of the Church are traditionally used to establish its calling and identity and to delineate its borders. It is for this reason the theme of “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” is particularly apt for this Encounter.

Your approach was to link the marks of the church to one another through Jesus Christ. They are his attributes before they are the attributes of the Church.  You referred in particular to Jesus’ High Priestly prayer: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.” (John 17.17-19)

Promising though this approach is, and in many ways consonant with the gospel, it seemed to offer a way of bypassing rather than expounding the specificity of Scripture. In a sense it transcends the other approaches offered here at the Encounter, but with the danger of a lack of specific application.

Thus, for example, your account of the holiness of the Church focuses on the holiness secured by Christ at the cross and the consequent holiness as a gift to those who are in union with Christ. But you did not take the next step, so obvious in the Epistles, of showing how this holiness of union with Christ is demonstrated in the obedience to the word of God.

Even within the Johannine literature, the connection between faith in Jesus and obedience to his commandments appears repeatedly:

If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14.15)

“If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” (John 15.10)

“By this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (I John 2.3)

“All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.” (I John 3.24)

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.” (I John 5.3)

After all, this truth must lie at the heart of holiness: that we so depend on the Lord that we are obedient to his word, whatever the cost. And in the Epistles, this holiness is the holiness of the Church, the holiness of those who build each other up, and also the holiness that must be defended in controversy against false teachers, whether legalists or libertines.

This surely is the context of the Gospel of John because a line has already been drawn against those who have resisted the claims of Christ. John chapters 13-17 are addressed to those who not only have the commandments but also keep them.  John 15 warns of the pruning or cutting away of dead branches that have failed to bear fruit because of not abiding in Him and His word. The stark contrast of the language of light/darkness, seeing/blind, life/death shows clearly that there is the realization that disobedience will lead to division and exclusion.

You did offer an indication of how a Christ-centred method may be applied in controversy. You scanned the New Testament for controversies of such magnitude that the unity of the Church was threatened. You instanced two such challenges:  over the Person of Christ (I John 2.22) and over the Grace of the Gospel (Galatians 1.8 and 3.2).

By using the same method, however, we may also speedily find another challenge to the unity of the body of Christ posed by unrepented sexual immorality, an offence so flagrant that Paul insisted that the sinner be expelled from the fellowship, and one of a type of sin which he said would cut the offender off from the kingdom of heaven (I Corinthians 5 and 6). So relevant is this to the present crisis in the Communion that we regret that you did not either use it as an illustration of activities that is capable of breaking unity or explain why moral teaching and behaviour is different from other Church-dividing essentials.

Indeed, it is not hard to find in the teaching of Scripture other instances of behaviour and beliefs which require the cessation of fellowship and the breach of unity. The Second Letter of Peter, which you quoted in terms of our participation in the divine nature (1.4) describes division in the church uncannily like the false leaders in our Communion today:

“For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved.” (II Peter 2.18-19)

During our daily Bible Studies on 1 and 2 Peter we could not miss the solemn warning about the danger of false prophets among us (note especially the series of “ifs” in 2 Peter 2.4,5). We were reminded, sadly, that there will be ‘ignorant and unstable ‘ people who, finding Paul’s sayings “hard” because of the call to holiness and godliness, will twist [them] to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3.17)

This all reminds us of the points established for us at this Encounter, that the marks of the Church summon us to vigilance concerning its faithfulness to apostolic teaching and mission, its unity in the truth of God’s word, its holy obedience to the word of the Lord, and the embrace of its catholicity in the wholeness of the authentic gospel which it offers all.

The essence of libertinism is the severing of the grace of Christ from his moral commandments. This, we believe, is at the heart of our present divisions.  Although it is right to be reminded both of the grace of God in Christ and of our own frailty and sinfulness, neither the greatness of grace nor the sinfulness of sin can be advanced as reasons for failing in our duty to guard the gospel. The church is, after all, “a pillar and buttress of truth” (I Timothy 3.15) and “Your word is truth” (John 17.17).

 

Questions and Answers

We are grateful for your willingness to answer the many questions that our members wished to ask, and we hope that you may take time to answer some of those that were not mentioned in the session. Having said this, we do feel that on a number of points your replies raised more questions.


Human Sexuality and Authority

1. We appreciated your acknowledgement of the “overwhelming consensus” of the Church in time and space in believing that sex is intended by God for married couples only and therefore that same-sex sex is unacceptable and cannot be described as “holy and blessed”. You stated that you as Archbishop must stand with this consensus. We are most grateful for your unequivocal words. We wonder, however, whether your personal dissent from this consensus prevents you from taking the necessary steps to confront those churches that have embraced teaching contrary to the overwhelming testimony of the Anglican Communion and the church catholic.  We urge you to rethink your personal view and embrace the Church’s consensus and to act on it, based as it is on the clear witness of Scripture.

2. In the matter of the Civil Partnerships Act, we appreciate the dilemma faced by bishops as members of the House of Lords of the English Government. The willingness of the Government to override clear Christian teaching in an area of life where the church has a unique role raises a serious question whether the church-state relationship is obsolete and a hindrance to the Gospel. According to your explanation, the Roman Catholic Church was able to seek a conscientious exception to the Act for the very reason that it was not part of the Establishment. Surely the Church of England should have sought a similar exception. Not doing so gives the appearance of evil with regard to its “partnered” clergy even if meaningful discipline is exercised and you failed to mention the implication of this new act with regard to the laity that will force all parish clergy to accept openly gay partners to the altar rail on penalty of church discipline.

Instruments of Unity and the Anglican Communion

3. We welcome your pastoral example of coming amongst us as presiding Primate of the Anglican Communion. We recognize the limitations on your office, as the Communion has few legal structures. We agree with you that a Communion Covenant is needed. However, we are troubled by your reluctance to use your moral authority to challenge the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada to call for the immediate cessation of any blessings of same sex unions and on any ordinations of those in such unions in every diocese in the Episcopal Church USA and the Anglican Church of Canada. The apostle Paul never invoked law for his churches (indeed there was no canon law at that time), but he nevertheless exhorted them to be of one mind with him and to conform their lives to apostolic tradition (II Thessalonians 2.15). We do not see why you cannot warn these churches now, based on the Windsor Report and your own convictions about unity, that they will not be invited to Lambeth 2008 unless they truly repent.

Miscellaneous Questions

4. In regard to the appointment exclusively of first-world liberals to head the Communion Secretariat and committees like the Panel of Reference, we are disappointed with your deferring to “process.” You seem to keep saying, “My hands are tied.” We urge you to untie your hands and provide the bold, inclusive leadership the Communion needs at this time of crisis and distrust. One area of particular concern is the manner in which people are appointed to the various commissions and task forces, often without the knowledge or recommendation of their Province. We are more than ready to offer you the names of gifted, and highly competent men and women who could serve to guide our Communion into the future.

5. We are glad that you are concerned about new approaches to evangelism in England.  We know that Europe has become a spiritual desert, with the European Union even proposing to drop reference to the heritage of Christianity from its Constitution. We urge that re-evangelization and mission to Europe be a top priority of the Church of England and we pledge our support.

6. We also agree with your desire to listen to Muslim views and understanding their context. We applaud the initiatives that you have taken to engage in such conversations. We were pleased to hear your conviction that in all such conversations we pray for opportunities to make a grace-filled presentation of the unique claims of Christ. However, we are troubled by your reference to “crude threatening proselytizing.” None of us would support such an approach during these critical times and we wonder to whom you were referring?

Personal

7. We appreciate your sharing the testimony of your own pilgrimage of faith, including your early encounter with Russian Orthodoxy. We agree there is much to learn from other traditions, such as the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Baptists and Pentecostals, who are equally part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We are sure you must feel the shame caused by the brokenness within our own Communion when you interact with these churches ecumenically.

Once again, we wish to commend you for taking the effort to be with us in Egypt.


With gratitude and fraternal greetings

 

Your brothers in Christ,

The Most Rev’d Peter J. Akinola (Church of Nigeria)

The Most Rev’d Dr. Justice Akrofi (West Africa)

The Most Rev’d Fidele Dirokpa (Congo)

The Most Rev’d Emmanuel Kolini (Rwanda)

The Most Rev’d. Bernard Malango (Central Africa)

The Most Rev’d Dr. Joseph Marona (Sudan)

The Most Rev’d Benjamin Nzimbi (Kenya)

The Most Rev’d Henry Orombi (Uganda)

The Most Rev’d Remi J. Rabenirina (Indian Ocean)

The Most Rev’d Ignacio Soliba (Philippines)

The Most Rev’d Gregory Venables (Southern Cone)

The Most Rev’d Yong Ping Chung (SE Asia)

Present but had to leave before the final draft was circulated:

The Most Rev’d Donald Mtetemela (Tanzania)

The Most Rev’d Bernard Ntahoturi (Burundi)

The Most Rev’d Dr. Peter Sugandhar (Church of South India)




Posted by on 11/15 at 10:26 PM
  1. Terrence

    You keep referring to the Holy Spirit as a guiding factor and then go on to ignore and twist biblical reference that speaks against homosexuality. “man SHALL NOT lie with man as with woman and woman SHALL NOT lie with woman as man, this is an abomination in the eyes of the lord”. I’m not saying that salvation is not possible through Our Lord but the repentance of sin has to be true. “Go and sin no more” is what Jesus said. A person living in a same sex relationship is not repentant. You cannot ignore scripture or change it. If you do it has no value at all. Just because we live in modern times is no excuse. This kind of thing is the work of Satan.

    The comming of the Christ and his death on the cross for our sins didn’t change the law of God. “I come not to change the law or the prophets but to fullfill them” Jesus said. The Mosaic laws that weren’t imposed on the Gentiles were mainly to do with food and circumcison. Circumcision was the mark of the first covanant the Jews had with God. Jesus dieing on the Cross was the second covenant for all men therefor that law no longer applied. The eating of pork was changed when Jesus said that it wasn’t what goes into the mouth that condemed a man but what came out of his mouth.

    I welcome homosexuals to Christ who want to change there ways and lead a new and holy life. But I won’t accept a practicing homosexual as one to guide us in faith or accept him as Bishop. This is in violation of every thing Holy and against the teachings of the Church that I’ve lived with for 60 years. It goes against scripture and is in violation of the Articals of Religeon set up when the ECUSA was founded. I refered to artical 20, have you read it. Or has that been changed in violation of that very artical, which is wrong as well as it violates the Church itself.

    We cannot allow what are purely secular matters to controll our religeous beliefs. What’s next, the Church supporting the murder of hundreds of thousands babies to support abortion as a means of birth controll. This is what these actions can lead to. This is what the secular, athestic world is doing. Does it have to apply to the Church as well?

    I support the actions of the Global South, The Diocese of Pittsburg, and returning to the old values and traditions of the past. We cannot go on allowing the false doctrine that is being imposed to go on. Thats it plane and simple.

    Marlin

    Posted by  on  11/27  at  09:22 PM
  2. Marlin,

    I understand that we our not in agreement. I believe that civilized and intellegent can reasonably disagree on these subjects.

    However, we are all bound by our Baptismal Covenant. Perhaps we should all go back to it and see what we have vowed to believe and do when we entered the faith.

    The Bishops, clerics and laity of the church have all taken vows and made oaths to enter the church and to hold office. Let us examine those vows and oaths and see if we are fulfilling our sworn duty. The discussion and examination of our vows and oaths could help us resolve our differences. If we no longer agree to live by our vows and oaths then we forfeit our membership and our office(s) in the church. We have no part in the process.

    There is nothing more on this subject that I wish to share. The Peace of God be with you!

    Posted by  on  11/28  at  01:14 PM
  3. McCabe

    I thank you and agree with your response.

    Hopfully with the guidance of God this will be resolved and the Church will remain whole.

    Marlin

    Posted by  on  11/28  at  11:20 PM
  4. A helpful response to some of the assertions of the primates’ letter is found in last week’s Church Times.  David Edwards open letter can be read here:

    http://www.churchtimes.com/churchtimes/website/pages.nsf/httppublicpages/252EFF216CB7A951802570C20051DE87

    Posted by  on  12/02  at  06:23 PM
  5. Ray

    Thanks for the link. But I cannot see how this letter is ‘helpful’ when in the first place, the original Primates letter was only addressed to Abp Rowans. 

    As for David’s
    “Nor do I concentrate on your completely unprovoked attack on the integrity of the Archbishop of Canterbury.”

    Where did he got that from? The media’s interpretation? Given that any letter can be interpreted in various ways, given the context and content, many readers are still waiting to be convinced that this letter was an “attack,” let alone ‘completely unprovoked...integrity of Abp..” Huh?

    I suppose if this interpretation and imagination keeps some entertained and in angst, they can keep carrying on the conversations - with themselves.

    Posted by  on  12/02  at  06:38 PM
  6. JimmyLane

    I think that the letter is helpful for its clear content and eirenic tone

    It does not seem innapropriate for a senior churchman to respond publicly to a letter which was made available to the general public on this website

    As to the primates’letter being seen as an “attack” this is not just David Edwards view The evangelical Bishop of Durham, Tom Wright, criticises the letter as “ill-judged” and “hectoring” So JimmyLane in the time-honoured phrase “your puzzlement’s odd”

    Posted by  on  12/02  at  07:51 PM
  7. For myself I cannot see where there can be any argument in this whole matter. Why are there arguments? The secular world cannot be allowed to infringe on Church matters, so secular law on moral matters has no hold on the Church. We live by God’s moral laws which are in the Bible and not up for disscusion. There are those who would cast out the Old Testament because the moral laws there go against the sin they commit every day. There are those that I’ve seen on other sites who would eliminate the Bible in its entirety because it not politically correct.

    Just as in the secular world the problems are comming from a very vocal minority. In the Churches in the US and Canada, minorty factions and renagade preists would undermine the whole world Church. If the won’t recant their standing then as Jesus said “if thy hand offend, thee then cut it off and cast it from thee”, this meaning if your hand sins and he wasn’t talking a bout an individual alone but any who are unrepentant including organizations or groups.

    It is clear, as the Global South maintains, That there are those in the ECUSA who are teaching false doctrine. I feel if they won’t recant and repent then they too should be cut off from the ECUSA. I also feel that this is the view of most of the ECUSA members. All you have to do is read, noting the individuals posting, and it becomes clear. There are other sites as well and it’s the same on them.

    Every one talks of God’s Love but want to over look his wrath. God loves those who love him and follow his commands. Many would ignore what God does to those who go against his word.

    Marlin

    Posted by  on  12/02  at  09:47 PM
  8. Marlin,

    “It is clear, as the Global South maintains, That there are those in the ECUSA who are teaching false doctrine. I feel if they won’t recant and repent then they too should be cut off from the ECUSA. I also feel that this is the view of most of the ECUSA members.”

    Is this what you call ‘listening’? That is the process we are engaged in now - listening to each other. Listening is not yelling at one another. Listening is being attentive to the speaker. It is the processing of attempting to hear the other person saying those things we do not want to hear. Listening is respecting each other. Respecting each other is to see the inherent dignity of the other person.

    It is our sworn duty to uphold our Baptismal Covenant that calls us to respect the dignity of all persons. It is our sworn duty to uphold our Baptismal Covenant that tells us to seek and serve Christ in all people. If we do live in accordance to our sworn Baptismal Covenant then are we really members of the ECUSA or the great Anglican Communion?

    Posted by  on  12/03  at  06:50 AM
  9. Ray

    Odd my puzzlement may be, but odder still when one examines the content of the letter (after all it is here on the same page- read it for yourself). It is not about who shares the Media’s opinion (even if it is the respectable Bishop of Durham, ‘evangelical’ or otherwise). I too think making it public was a wrong move. But it is a letter with a gentle, sincere tone and direct/clear content, responding and interacting with ++Rowans message at the 3E.

    Why right and on what basis do the rest of us have to judge it in this manner? Unless, truth does not interest us and we are only out to get at those GSPs (esp ++Akinola).

    Posted by  on  12/04  at  11:05 PM
  10. mccabe (Terrence)

    You keep reffering to the Baptisimal Covnant. What does this have to do with this matter?

    To quote:

    Dost thou, therefor, in the name of this child, renounce the devil and all his works, the vaine pomp and glory of the world, with all covetous desires of the same, and the sinful desires of the flesh, so that thou wilt not follow nor be led by them?

    Answer: I renounce them all; and, by God’s help, will endevor not to follow or be led by them.

    Minister: Dost thou belive all the Articles of the Christian Faith, as contained in the Apostals Creed?

    Answer: I do.

    Minister: Wilt thou be Baptised in this Faith?

    Answer: That is my desire.

    Minister: Wilt thou then obediently keep God’s holy will and commandments, and walk in the same all the days of thy life?

    Answer: I will, by God’s help.

    Minister:Having now, in the name of this Child, made these promises, wilt thou also on thy part take head that this Child learn the Creed, the Lord’s prayer, and the Ten Commandments, and all other things which a Christian ought to know and believe to his soul’s health?

    Answer: I will, by God’s help.

    Minister: Wilt thou take head that this Child, so soon as sufficently instructed, be brought to the Bishop to be confirmed by him?

    Answer: I will, God being my helper.

    I ask again: What is your point????

    Posted by  on  12/05  at  12:27 AM
  11. Ray

    I agree with you. The letter and answers are quite clear. I think that some just want to put spin on this just as they do every thing else. I don’t think any thing can be read into these. They are gentle and sincere and quite to the point with no retoric.

    Posted by  on  12/05  at  12:32 AM
  12. Marlin,

    The online version of the Book of Common Paryer is available to all. Use Google search full phrase search option: “Book of Common Prayer”. Please refer to it since it is the only authorized ECUSA version:

    Part of the Baptismal Covenant:

    Celebrant: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?
    People: I will, with God’s help.

    Celebrant: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?
    People: I will, with God’s help.

    Celebrant: Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?
    People:I will, with God’s help.

    Celebrant: Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being?
    People:I will, with God’s help.


    Prayers for the Candidates
    (I have deleted some of the service - see Book of Common Prayer for full service)

    Leader:Open their hearts to your grace and truth.
    People:Lord, hear our prayer.

    Leader:Fill them with your holy and life‑giving Spirit.
    People:Lord, hear our prayer.

    Leader:Keep them in the faith and communion of your holy Church.
    People:Lord, hear our prayer.

    Leader:Teach them to love others in the power of the Spirit.
    People:Lord, hear our prayer.

    Leader: Send them into the world in witness to your love.
    People:Lord, hear our prayer.

    Leader:Bring them to the fullness of your peace and glory.
    People:Lord, hear our prayer.

    Posted by  on  12/05  at  12:59 AM
  13. mccabe

    I will say this, I haven’t seen the new prayer book. If this is from it then there have been, in my opinion too amny changes for me to accept it. For instance the changes in the Creeds. “We blive in God..........”. The creed’s were a stament of personal blief not a group belief. “I belive in God.......”.

    The oath’s that I transcribed were from the prayer book printed in 1945 and the baptismal service that was preformed after my birth. You’re transcription is not in my prayer book. If this is an example of the new prayer book then I don’t hold with it. I believe what is stated but I still don’t see where the apply to the current situation. There is nothing in either the prayer book or the bible that says to love sin. Love and help the sinner to repentance but abhore sin. The current situation is caused because of unrepentant sin and no amount of retoric, false interpretatons of biblical verse, or outright rejection of biblical truth will convince me otherwise.

    This is the exact point the Bishops of the Global South and the Pittsburg Diocese are trying to make. Any deveation from scripture is false doctrine. That is the point. We all agree on God’s forgiving nature but you seem to lack teaching of God’s wrath for those who go against his word and teach others to do the same. Don’t ignore those parts of scripture.

    I just hope Arch Bishop Williams gets input from this site. He will see that more than the Global South are upset by all this.

    Posted by  on  12/05  at  03:29 AM
  14. Marlin,

    I had a feeling that you were not an active member of the ECUSA since you had no working knowledge of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer. You have confirmed my speculations that you do not attend ECUSA services on any regular basis. Even in my small rural congregation, we repeat our Baptismal Covenant three or four times a year.

    Why do I insist on talking about the Covenant? That is simple enough to answer. It is the required statement of faith for all members of the ECUSA. It is the only doctrine that we must confess as our true faith. It is the outline of the actions that we must perform be a member of that faith.

    If you were an active member of the church then you would be aware of the vows required of all active members of the ECUSA. You may wish to review the service for the Great Vigil of Easter. You may wish to review the service for Confirmation.

    Posted by  on  12/05  at  07:26 AM
  15. mccabe

    Why do you think that I stand with the Global South. The Church I was born in, baptised in, and confirmed in doesn’t seem to exist any longer accept in the Global South and dioceces like Pittsburg. Instead of ignoring what was going on with the canges we old timmers should have made our objections knowen. With the election of a homosexual bishop though it has gone to far down the road of false doctrine. Of course I’m not familer with the 1979 prayer book. I never clamed to be. But the old prayer book is still offered for sale and if it is no longer valid, why is it still sold? why do many Churches still have services under the old doctrine. There are many who left the Church because of these changes. Doesn’t that say that they aren’t accepted. My own Church has suffered a great loss in attendance because of these changes. When I found out the way the Church (My Episcopal Church) had gone down the road of false doctrine I thought it time to speak out. The ECUSA has allways been my Church at heart. My ancestors were devoute Anglicans. My G. G. Grandfather supplied most of the stone for the building of my home Church. What has and is going on is a travesty. It breaks my heart to see it. I’ll not follow the false doctrine. I’ll not break faith with my God no matter how assalted or ridiculed. If that makes me a fool in your eyes, so be it, I’m a fool, but I’ll still not break faith. I’ll also pray for your soul. More so if you follow this false doctrine. I’m old Church, just maybe I can see what you don’t.

    Posted by  on  12/05  at  09:27 AM
  16. Marlin,

    You wrote: “I’ll not follow the false doctrine. I’ll not break faith with my God no matter how assalted or ridiculed. If that makes me a fool in your eyes, so be it, I’m a fool, but I’ll still not break faith. I’ll also pray for your soul. More so if you follow this false doctrine. I’m old Church, just maybe I can see what you don’t.”

    I would never call you a ‘fool’. I do not think your foolish for following your heart or conscience. I follow mine. We should never be asked to violate our conscience.

    You may pray for me if that helps you. I can certainly use all the help that I can get. However, I am at a loss to explain what I have done that is wrong. I take my Baptismal Covenant seriously. Breaking it is for me a fundemental failure of faith.

    Remember that we live to serve each other. At the present time, the whole church is committed to ‘listening’ to each other. There is pain in our church today. There is real pain on both sides of this division in our community of faith. I will never stop ‘listening’.

    I am so sorry for your pain and sorrow at the changes we have made in the ECUSA in the last 40 years. While you see loss, I see growth. I only wish that I could explain that to you and easy your pain.

    Posted by  on  12/05  at  12:26 PM
  17. The goal is simple: to know and love God, and to love God’s children. Everything that is not part of that goal is superfluous at best.

    Obviously the obsessive need to scapegoat homosexuals is not part of that goal. It is more likely opposed to that goal.

    You cannot rationally reduce love to obeying a list of rules. That is a complete reversal of what Christ said. He said that love is the fulfillment of the law. Not that following rules is some sort of love by proxy. If that were true, the Pharisees would have been the greatest lovers of all time. 

    Clearly there are those here who believe that who God accepts and who God rejects has something to do with them. This is spiritual delusion, pure and simple.

    God’s love for his children is higher than any and all dogma. If your dogma contradicts God’s love for his children, then your teaching is false and did not come from Jesus Christ.

    Posted by  on  12/15  at  11:23 AM
  18. Martin,

    I totally agree with your comment.’Where love is - there also is God’ and ancient hymn of our faith that should be sung at ever meeting discussing this topic.

    Posted by  on  12/15  at  11:43 AM
  19. This thread is long dead, but for the record:

    Joseph:  The assertions at religioustolerance.org, or at least at http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_marj.htm and http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_marj_c.htm—which seem to be the only pages with specifics—have been so thoroughly refuted that even Walter Wink no longer maintains that there is any possibility of clawing some sort of positive view of homosexual activity from any part of the Bible. 

    It is possible to argue that new revelations have overridden the traditional Biblical view, or that Biblical authority is no longer binding on Christians, or some variation of these points, as did To Set Our Hope on Christ, the Episcopal official presentation to the ACC.  (These arguments are also unsuccessful, but not quite as obviously so as the Biblical attempts.)

    So I repeat my question.

    Postmodern:

    Kindly show where I have lacked civility, or descended to ad-hominem in any posts.  Or have we reached the point in postmodern Political Correctness where bringing up actual facts and evidence in a conversation is too, too oppressive?

    Posted by  on  06/04  at  08:13 AM
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