Date: January 4, 2008 By Robert Lundy, Communications Assistant, American Anglican Council
Earlier today I had the opportunity to speak with the Primate of the Southern Cone, The Most Rev. Gregory Venables. I asked him what his thoughts were on current events in the Anglican Communion. Below are some questions and answers from that conversation.
AAC: Are you going to attend the Lambeth conference? If not, then why?
++Venables: My personal conviction after a very long period of active participation in this drawn-out process is that the system is not allowing a solution. It’s Catch 22. We believed initially that there was a simple, albeit painful, solution but there seemed to be an overwhelming reluctance to pay the price. It’s not even “unity whatever the cost” because that’s the one thing we won’t end up with. The Anglican Communion has already unraveled, and things are even further away from resolving the deadlock. Under these conditions, Lambeth will not only fall far short of anything positive but actually make things worse. Perhaps, looking at it from the outside, it looks easy but inside it’s not only labyrinthine, but there is no centre to get to. It’s an ecclesiastical Alice through the Looking Glass, but there’s no humour and little real love.
AAC: Why do you think there is disillusionment with Canterbury and the Anglican System?
++Venables: It’s not personalised but it is definitely to do with the Anglican system and the whole procedural set up. So much has been done such as Lambeth 1:10, several very clear communiques, the Windsor report and even some crucial and concrete decisions taken, yet nothing seems to have really changed and it’s hard not to read this negatively. It’s as if every time you have to start from scratch and people have just got tired. The latest disillusionment is that there won’t be another primates’ meeting, which is a tragedy because it was there that everything was developed. In the real world you don’t dismiss the medical team before the operation is completed.
AAC: There are orthodox Anglicans who think attending Lambeth is the answer and that the GAFCON is a mistake; what do you say to them?
++Venables: God bless them but they’re probably making a mistake. Some of us who have actually participated in all the meetings believe we have to get on with the really important ministry of the Church, which is to do with salvation and eternal life, and that this can only be done with those who share the historic biblical faith. It’s a question of realism and priorities.
05 January 2008 at 11:27 am
Archbishop Venables said, “Some of us who have actually participated in all the meetings believe we have to get on with the really important ministry of the Church, which is to do with salvation and eternal life, and that this can only be done with those who share the historic biblical faith. It’s a question of realism and priorities.”
I fully agree and I’m greatly encouraged by this man’s leadership.
05 January 2008 at 1:33 pm
A hearty AMEN! Alice, I too am encouraged by Archbishop Venables’ statement.
Steve
05 January 2008 at 6:53 pm
Precisely stated here - Archbishop Drexel’s view of the Anglican Communion. [Edited, personal remark] This is what I’ve been saying for some time about Alice. Her perspective is the very same as that of Archbishop Drexel. But, can it be said to be the view of mainstream Anglicanism?
From the UK Anglican response to the Covenant document prepared under his chairmanship, it would appear to be not so.
Contrary to the prospect of disciplinary powers being wielded exclusively by the Primates (as suggested in the proposed Covenant Document) - which would cede to a power group amongst the Primates the power to dismiss any part of the Communion on theological grounds, the Church Times Poll in progress has shown that (so far)its readers have rejected this prospect by the formidable margin of 92 - 8 per cent.
This means that a strong majority rejects this specific factor (All power to the Primates) contained in the Covenant plan
That this would disappoint Archbishop Drexel is not too surprising, but he and the supporters of the Covenant plan have to realise that it just may not work, possibly because of its plan to rely too much on the opinion of the Primates - rather than the more democratic view of the Anglican Consultative Council, which was set up to include the views of clergy and laity, along with that of bishops and primates, on important Church policy matters.
Synodical Government is an important part of present-day Anglican Church government - in both dioceses and provinces, and may not be relegated to the Primates in concert.
05 January 2008 at 7:02 pm
Umm .. we’re talking about Archbishop Gregory Venables on this thread Ron .. not Drexel. Sigh, oh well, far be it from me to disallusion you.
05 January 2008 at 11:27 pm
Archbishop Venables is right when he says: “…we have to get on with the really important ministry of the Church, which is to do with salvation and eternal life, and that this can only be done with those who share the historic biblical faith.”
Those that protest that holding to the “historic biblical faith” is objectionable, do so because it insures accountability to a baseline reference point that they cannot or will not meet. None the less, the Anglican Communion needs to get back to her historic and fundamental Biblical roots.
I can see why there are some who are fearful of ceding power to the Primates, if that power includes an ability to dismiss any part of the Communion (or individuals) on theological grounds, but isn’t that the point of it?
If the Anglican Covenat would hold “all” (Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and laity) to a Biblical standard there would be true unity.
It is humorous that there are even those who think that the plan (Anglican Covenant) relies too much on the opinion of the Primates - rather than on a more democratic view; but the Covenant would be based on “historic biblical faith”, not on some Bishop’s opinions, and where in God’s name did anyone ever say that Christianity was democratic. A simple reading of the Scriptures indicate that we are δουλοι (servants) of our Lord… Jesus. Try as I might… I just can’t find where Jesus says: “Hey guys, I know that your times have changed, and people really don’t want to be bothered by those old stuffy things my father had written in that book thingy, so what do you think? You guys really know what is best, so could you kinda meet together and come up with something better for us? Something not so… narrow minded, bigoted, and exclusive?” What I have found is: “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46
Steve
06 January 2008 at 5:42 am
My friend Christopher Johnson, over at Midwest Conservative Journal, has written this helpful piece to put things in proper perspective:
“Quick Anglican quiz. What three things do the following have in common?
Lambeth Conference Resolution 1.10
The October, 2003 Anglican Primates Statement
The Windsor Report
The Dromantine Primates Communiqué
The Dar es Salaam Primates Communiqué
All five (1) were the result of Anglican meetings, (2) express the mind of Anglican Christianity and (3) were resolutely ignored by the Anglican Communion.
Archbishop Venables is quite right. If the Anglican Communion refuses to enforce its own decrees, then there is no reason to waste any more time with yet another meeting, even if that meeting is called a Lambeth Conference. There is nothing sacred about Lambeth Conferences which only date back to 1868.”
06 January 2008 at 7:30 am
Well said by ArchBishop Gregory Venables.
Father Ron Smith, we do have an Alice, not the one in Wonderland but rather the one in reality land.
The following from Deuternomy 4:1-9 a teaching by Moses to the people of Israel, is one that applies today as aptly as it did then even to those who do not believe in the Holy Scriptures:
1 Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
3 You saw with your own eyes what the LORD did at Baal Peor. The LORD your God destroyed from among you everyone who followed the Baal of Peor,
4 but all of you who held fast to the LORD your God are still alive today.
5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it.
6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”
7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him?
8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?
9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.
Anglicanism as known in the past is all but dead. The re-alignment that is taking place will rid the “new” church of the Apostate, liberal revisionists that seem to feel that doing the nice thing is always the right thing to do…NOT!
It is indeed time that the RIGHT THING is done although it will appear to many to not be the Nice thing….Father Smith, I do hope that you will be able to grasp this statement.
In Christ,
Gerry
06 January 2008 at 6:07 pm
Mr O’Brien (above), who seems to believe that he is uniquely gifted with prophetic vision in this case, states”
“Anglicanism as known in the past is all but dead. The re-alignment that is taking place will rid the “new” church of the Apostate”.
This is, to say the very least, an outrageous statement - if, as I suspect, he is referring to the loyalists who remain with the authentic Anglican Communion around the world. This is surely a case of ‘The tail trying to wag the dog’. Just wishing will not necessarily make things so!
No. Mr O’Brien, traditional Anglicanism is not dead! And you, and all others on this site who would dearly like to purloin the character and title of Anglicanism, presuming that they alone have captured it’s spirtual heritage and ministry in their newly-formed alliances of disaffected former Anglicans, need to be aware of God’s will, which will not be frustrated by the real ‘apostates’.
Those who have remained loyal to the ‘semper reformanda’ process of organic growth, by the Holy Spirit, of the mainstream Anglican Church Community, are the direct inheritors of the venerable catholic yet reformed tradition of Ecclesia Anglicana.
To suggest that those who are poised to defect from the mainstreeam Church are the true and lawful heirs of the world-wide Anglican Church tradition is simply a work of fantasy, and should in no way be encouraged by the true and legitimate ‘Instruments of Unity’ of our Church.
God will not be mocked, nor his authentic mission to the word, frustrated by rebellion!
06 January 2008 at 9:44 pm
I an curious if we conservative, Scripture believing Anglicans, the 66 percent (+/-) majority of laity, bishops and primates of the Communion, can seize control of Lambeth 08 as done at an earlier conference. That possibility would make our presence at the Lambeth Jamboree worthwhile. Anyone familiar with the procedural aspects of the Lambeth thingy?
Having superseded old Demi Papal primus inter pares, our ++Peter Abuja, or ++Gregory could then dismiss “Cardinal” Kaeron, VGR, Mrs. Schori, Spong, Ingham and that entire disreputable mob of heretics and declare TEC anethema. Call the Constabulary if they don’t leave the Palace.
Way cool.
I’m serious. Can we out vote them?
Teddy.
07 January 2008 at 12:16 am
Teddy,
I am total agreement with you that the “revisionists” need to either be asked to leave or to repent if they are to remain within the Anglican Communion, but I am afraid that Lambeth cannot do what you desire.
The Lambeth Conference was never intended to address heresy or to discipline National Churches that have “walked away” from the “Historic Biblical Faith” while trying to claim that they are still Anglican.
In 1865, the Provincial Synod of Canada, on a motion from the Bishop of Ontario, petitioned the Archbishop of Canterbury “for a General Council of her members from every land.” At issue was a scandal that was affecting the unity of the Church. Bishop Colenso of Natal, had come to the conclusion that not all of the Old Testament was “inspired” and therefore it could not be relied upon as true. Bishop Colenso was deposed by the Archbishop of Capetown, but he appealed to the Privy Council. When the Lambeth Conference of Bishops was convened in 1867, Archbishop Longley said:
“It should be distinctly understood that at this meeting no declaration of faith shall be made, and no decision come to which shall effect generally the interests of the Church, but that we shall meet together for brotherly counsel and encouragement. I should refuse to convene any assembly which pretended to enact any Canons or affected to make any decisions binding on the Church.”
Remember that the ABC controls who gets an invitation to attend Lambeth Conference. That fact alone reveals that Lambeth is not designed to be a “General Synod” at all. Archbishop Longley said:
“It has never been contemplated that we should assume the functions of a General Synod of all the Churches in full communion with the Church of England, and take upon ourselves to enact canons that should be binding upon those here represented.”
GAFCON is a much better way to go. If the ABC and the Lambeth Conference (under the control of the ABC) will not rid the Anglican Communion from those who have hijacked the faith and are leading it into abject heresy, then it needs to be done by the orthodox Bishops in Conciliary consultation.
See - http://anglicanhistory.org/lambeth/conference_bishops1867.html
Steve
07 January 2008 at 12:28 am
Teddy,
I forgot to tell you the end of the story.
How did Lambeth resolve the issue?
“RESOLUTION VI.—[15/16] “That, in the judgment of the Bishops now assembled, the whole Anglican Communion is deeply injured by the present condition of the Church in Natal; and that a Committee be now appointed at this General Meeting to report on the best mode by which the Church may be delivered from the continuance of this scandal, and the true faith maintained. That such Report be forwarded to his Grace the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, with the request that he will be pleased to transmit the same to all the Bishops of the Anglican Communion, and to ask for their judgment thereupon.”
Appoint a committee and yack, yack, yack.
Nothing has changed.
Steve
07 January 2008 at 12:51 am
Fr. Ron,
Just curious, but what does remaining “...loyal to the ‘semper reformanda’ process of organic growth…” mean?
Words have meaning and when they are strung together they form sentences. When sentences are kept within their context they communicate to another the idea or thought intended by the writer.
Perhaps you could restate your thoughts so I and others can understand what point you are trying to make.
Thanks
Steve
07 January 2008 at 3:53 am
Dear Father Ron Smith:
You wrote: “Mr O’Brien (above), who seems to believe that he is uniquely gifted with prophetic vision in this case, states”
I have NEVER claimed to have a prophetic vision n’or would I ever claim to have such. Far from it, however, I do not think one needs to be a Prophet to be able to see with their eyes, hear with their ears and think with their brain.
That being said, if you feel I am mocking God, then that is your right, but you are so wrong. We must be careful when we let our anger take control of us that we don’t say things that will come back to bite us later.
In Christ,
Gerry O’Brien
07 January 2008 at 5:42 am
Let us remain united with the Lord and His Word atleast.
Bishop Ijaz Inayat
07 January 2008 at 7:09 am
I fully agree with Bishop Ijaz - we must all remain united to the Lord and His Word - remembering that ‘The Word became FLESH,and dwelt among us’. Jesus said “I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE - he who believes in me has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day”.
For Anglicans, as well as all who profess to believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Redeemer, The Holy Bible is our Guide, but Jesus Christ himself is our Way, our Truth and our Life.
To meet as often as possible with our Lord in the Sacrament of his love, and to contemplate the reality of his Presence among us, is both our duty and our joy:
O Saving Victim - opening wide
The Gate of Heaven to us below;
Our foes press hard on every side
Thine aid supply, Thy strength bestow.
All praise and thanks to Thee ascend -
For evermore - blest Three in One.
Oh grant us Life that shall not end -
In our true native land with Thee. Amen
Hs Word is Truth - thereis no other!
07 January 2008 at 7:36 am
“...loyal to the ‘semper reformanda’ process of organic growth…” means that there is no absolute Truth since truth evolves over time. There is no Divine Personality, only changing ideas about God.
Steve, you’d enjoy reading William H. Willimon’s 1983 article on Mt. Moriah. You’ll find it here: http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/
Happy New Year!
07 January 2008 at 7:56 am
Bishop Ijaz Inayat,
Please excuse me, but are you Bishop Ijaz Inayat of the Diocese of Karachi who launched “The Inter-Faith Friendship Forum, Karachi”?
If so, I am a bit confused when you say:
“Let us remain united with the Lord and His Word at least.”
According to your website, your forum’s stated goal is to promote friendship and tolerance between different people of different faiths, sects and parties.
Did you not say?
“It is a forum to promote friendship, the basis of which is love which does not have conditions and tags to the friendship. Where everything is shared on the basis of equality and all are looking after each other. This forum is determined to bring people of different ethical groups, parties, sects and ideologies together to show unity in diversity in order to strengthen the basic social fabric of the Pakistani society which is bitterly divided on un-necessary grounds.”
My dear Bishop, surely you know that all “faiths” are not equal. While we can dialog with and act in Christian charity to those of “other” faiths, it would be patently wrong to assume that what divides Christianity with other religions is simplistically “a matter of opinion and perspective.” That which divides us is “truth” versus “error”. All paths do not lead to God. One way leads to everlasting life and the others to eternal damnation. We need to be very careful on this issue.
Remember, it was Jesus himself who said: “… I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6
He didn’t say “… no man cometh unto the Father but by Buddha, Mohammed, Gandhi, Devi, Bhagavān, Krishna, Rama, Shiva, Kali, Ganesh, Hanuman, Vishnu, Joseph Smith Jr., Charels Taze Russel, Victor Pual Wierwille, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White and me.”
So, when you say, “Let us remain united with the Lord and His Word at least.” What exactly do you mean? If all religions share equality, then who is “the Lord” and what function does “His Word” have?
“Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” Amos 3:3
“[16] But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; [17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, [18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” Acts 26:16-18
“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? “ 2 Cor 6:14
I pray that I have misunderstood you.
Steve
07 January 2008 at 8:01 am
Alice,
As usual you have brought a bit of clarity to the confusion.
Thanks my friend.
Steve
07 January 2008 at 8:47 am
Dear Mr Berry. Now you have come out in your true colours - black and white, and not the glorious colours of the rainbow, which God made!
How very sad that is!
What a ghetto mentality you are projecting to everyone who reads this web-site. Does it offend you that the Lord Jesus reached out beyond his own Jewish community to people of other faiths and none? What drew them to Jesus was his great love - which was not understood, or in any way appreciated, by those Jewish contemporaries who had him crucified for his wonderful liberality and openness to all peoples, no matter what their faith status or human condition.
Perhaps this is one of the most important issues confronting the Christian Church today. Do we claim exclusivity, by virtue of our Christian faith, God’s special favour, as we belittle the faith of other people? If so, we ignore the fact that God has created everyone in the divine Image and Likeness of God. “I when I be lifted up, will draw ALL people to myself” - Jesus.
Yes, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no-one can come to the Father except through him. BUT Jesus may yet be the anonymous Redeemer and Saviour of ALL people - even those who have not yet received him. Our task, as Christians, is to love people into the Kingdom - not like the Devil, who would want them to go to Hell.
“A New Commandment I give to you, that you love one another as I have loved you - then (other people) will know that you are my disciples” - THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER. This is our mission!
To misunderstand the power of the Gospel to draw people to Christ - by loving and accepting them with the unconditional love of the God who gave his life for them, too, is to deny the nature of the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jesus brought freedom through his enunciation of the Gospel values of loving acceptance of all people - despite their (and our) unworthiness of God’s unconditional love. Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift. Amen?
07 January 2008 at 9:08 am
Dear Ron, what a black and white picture you paint of our wonderful Saviour Jesus Christ. If all that drew people to Jesus was His Love .. I would be miles away, because I find it very hard to imagine that He loves me. I’m too dirty .. too sinful for He who is Truth to love. Quite simply, I don’t recognize the Jesus I love in the words you use to describe Him. “His wonderful liberality?” As if He gave us no rules to help us live ‘rightly’ .. as if He just left us to do as we will.
Meanwhile, I will wait patiently for my liberal brothers and sisters to demonstrate ‘tolerance’ towards me, if they can’t manage to follow their own dictates and love me!
07 January 2008 at 4:14 pm
Rosemary, I must confess it is true that you do test people like myself to the utmost - in the matter of trying to love you as God loves you. But then, that is the message of the Gospel.
Yes, you may be, as you have claimed: “too dirty for He (sic) who is Truth, to love”, but God loves you nevertheless. And I confess that I am one of those who often has a problem with your didactic protestations on this site.
Perhaps it is because people like yourself are so very busy condemning the ‘dirtiness and sin’ of others, that we find your protestations against fellow sinners (despite your own self -confessed unworthiness of Gods’ love) to be hypocritical.
Hypocrisy is present in all of us, and it was the sin that Jesus could not abide.
And herein lies the problem of your particular version of the truth: You confess your own inability to live up to the basic commandment of the Lord, and yet you want to condemn others like yourself! Where is the justice in that, I ask?
If St. Paul could say that his own righteousness was ‘as filthy rags’, why are you insisting on other people’s need to be righteous before they can receive the redemption of the Christ, who came into this world to save sinners?
A good exercise for me,and all sacramentalists, is to repeat the Kyries in the Eucharist, and some of us do this more often than just on Sundays. Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy - is a timely reminder of our common culpability for our sins, before God & the Church
No, Rosemary, I’m afraid you have a long way to go - in pastoral education - before I would give you a license to preach - if I were your bishop. But then, if you lived out your principles of biblical inerrancy, you could not - as a woman - be given licence anyway.
07 January 2008 at 5:54 pm
Don’t feed the troll. He’s got some of you way way off topic, which is his intention. Revisionist lurkers distract us with their outrageous and inappropriate posts, and thus kill the thread, their most earnest desire. They do not want us discussing how to reform their post Christian social club Communion. Consensus and clarity is difficult to achieve when some creep is refusing to issue a license to preach when none was asked for. What a maroon. Just pretend he’s not there, and he will go away after a while. Egos like that need stroking. Don’t.
I agree that the invitations are in +++Rowan’s bailiwick. What I am suggesting is that when this meeting is convened, there surely has to be some format for discussion. Or, is it that the Primates simply sit there and get lectured to by the revisionist minority, and then go home, appropriately intimidated and chastised? Cardinal Kaeron’s dream no doubt, but not reality I think. I don’t see Venables, Akinola or Orimbi being pushed around by those pipsqueaks. I believe it was Dromantine when the Primates listened with courtesy to ABC’s agenda, and then simply took the meeting away from him and tabled for ever his fraudulent report. They then issued a really abrasive report and set of demands for TEC over the impotent objections of the revisionists. I suggest that if all of the orthodox Reform Bishops and Primates show up at Lambeth, and then stand up in their overwhelming numbers, and advise Kaeron and Williams they are out of there unless TEC is quickly and thoroughly dismissed from the Communion. +++Williams’ place in history is at stake here. If the GS and its associated provinces, dioceses and parishes walk (or don’t show up) at Lambeth, Anglicanism will have shifted forever to the South and Africa. I simply do not see ABC letting that happen.
I really think that is what is going on with GAFCON. ABC and the others are getting the message that we are done with their nonsense.
Does anyone really know how Lambeth is structured? Surely the majority of the world’s Anglicans can be heard. This corrosive debate, decades long, needs resolution not more conversation.
07 January 2008 at 6:39 pm
I can understand the sheer frustration of those Primates who have said they won’t go to Lambeth. They have suffered tremendously at the hands of ‘agenda’ .. ‘process’ .. and I’m ashamed to say ‘dishonesty.’
However, like teddymak, I would really like to see all GS Primates at Lambeth .. persevering for the faith despite the pain and suffering it has caused them.
When I became a Christian, one of the things that amazed me was that I had brothers and sisters all around the world, and that they would welcome me warmly wherever I went. Well here I am having discussions with brothers and sisters from all over the world .. and I’m still amazed. I didn’t then, and don’t now, feel that I am simply a member of the church family in the Province of New Zealand, but as the ABC said, a member of Christ’s church throughout the world. Please Lord, help us remain united.
07 January 2008 at 11:59 pm
Teddy,
Your memory serves you well.
It was at Dromantine that the Primates were able to control the agenda. Dromantine though is not Lambeth. Because of Lambeth’s history and the ABC’s tight control of the agenda that venue doesn’t look too promising for any major change. I hope that I am wrong.
The fact that the ABC has denied convening a Primates Meeting, though it has been officially requested. And because the ABC’s invitation process has denied access to several Orthodox Bishops while allowing the most liberal Bishops (perhaps to include Bishop, so-called, Eugene Robinson) to attend would make true reformation very difficult indeed. Not impossible, but very difficult.
This shows the great importance of GAFCON. I think that the real preparatory work for lasting change will be accomplished there. But great as this conference will be, GAFCON is only one of many steps that need to take place before the insanity currently controlling the Anglican Communion ends.
None the less, I pray that your scenario is right my friend.
Steve
08 January 2008 at 12:17 am
Rosemary said:
“When I became a Christian, one of the things that amazed me was that I had brothers and sisters all around the world, and that they would welcome me warmly wherever I went. Well here I am having discussions with brothers and sisters from all over the world .. and I’m still amazed. I didn’t then, and don’t now, feel that I am simply a member of the church family in the Province of New Zealand, but as the ABC said, a member of Christ’s church throughout the world. Please Lord, help us remain united.”
Yes Rosemary, I agree with you and it amazes me also. This is one of the wonderful things of todays technology (Internet), and it is beautiful. We must always remember that Christ’s church worldwide does not have a denominational title and in these days I believe that is a blessing for all of us.
Teddymak is right of course, we shouldn’t feed the trolls….. [edited]
The Anglican Church in New Zealand is infected with this malaria like illness of liberalism, but
Christ’s True Church is not.
The Apostle John wrote to Gaius of troubles with Diotrephes (3 John) and his erroneous attitude of wanting to control some churches and asked Gaius, with the help of Demetrius to deal with it .
The same stands today, You in N.Z. have your share of Diotrephes and we in Canada and TEC have them also, we must not lose hope because we have the knowledge that in the final days the Diotrephes’ of our day will be dealt with.
08 January 2008 at 3:08 am
The following URL will take you to a very good article by David Virtue and it certainly is in line with this thread.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7428
In Christ,
Gerry O’Brien
08 January 2008 at 9:45 am
Teddy,
From all that I’ve read (and I don’t at the moment have the links) it seems like the agenda is to be tightly controlled at Lambeth; there won’t even be any meeting of the whole group except late in the game; the meetings will be broken up into small groups. It seems very much like the Delphi technique which (I believe) was invented to prevent shareholders from taking control of a corporation over the objection of the board of directors.
From reading Bishop Venables ‘conversation’ and from his comments on StandFirm the other day, I have been profoundly affected. Several of the primates no longer put any faith in the Instruments of Communion. This includes, even, the Primates meeting itself, since they cannot call their own meeting and must rely on the ABC. It seems they have projected this distrust and fear of betrayal onto the Lambeth meeting also.
If Bishop Venables and the other primates who feel similarly are correct in their perception, it would be very wrong and even dangerous for them to go to Lambeth, for the likelihood exists that their participation will be interpreted as warrant for continuation of the various heresies, and seeing them as not serious enough to “tear the fabric of the communion.”
08 January 2008 at 10:14 am
Brer Rabbit, I acknowledge the truth of what you say, and it’s obviously VERY difficult for lay people like me .. so far down the chain .. to understand the true ramifications of what is going on. And I understand that Our Lord’s True church is there in all it’s glory, whatever denomination they belong to .. and it’s unified .. He makes it so.
Nevertheless, He called me into the Anglican communion as well as His church universal, and one MUST work for both truth and unity in that communion. Surely refusing to obey the head of that communion is not likely to lead to anything other than further fragmentation.
I have the deepest sympathy for those of our leaders who are suffering, and I’m darned if I understand the eccesliology well enough to articulate it .. but instinctively, I feel we should persevere.
08 January 2008 at 2:22 pm
Teddy, and others on this site who are pinning their hopes on GAFCON: According to the Religious Correspondent, Andrew Williams, in his article on the present controversy in The Guardian on 3/1/08 has revealed that GAFCON may actually not happen - at least, not in Jerusalem, anyway.
It appears that the Bishop in Jersualem is not happy about the meeting taking place in his diocese and has made this know to the GAFCON organisers. Apparently, though, the Primate of Nigeria has written to Bishop Darwani, which tells him - ‘after several paragraphs of God flannel, to shut up and do as he is told’.
Perhaps, then, the LAMBETH ‘Thingy’, as Teddy is wont to describe the gathering of loyal Anglican Bishops at Lambeth this year, may prove to be the only ‘show in town’ for the Anglican Prelates - at least in 2008.
Sorry guys! But there it is. You can’t gainsay the authority of the lawfully-appointed Bishop in Jerusalem. Not even Akinola can do that!
09 January 2008 at 12:28 am
Father Smith ~ your post #29 says “GAFCON may actually not happen”.
The key word in that statement to me at least is the word “may”. I have read other articles (publications) that indicate it is still in the plans that it will go ahead. I am not sure we should jump to a conclusion on this one as yet.
Perhaps you should go through the rest of the threads on this site and see if you missed any that you can post about the “MAY” thingie being cancelled.
You MAY be right You MAY be wrong….let’s wait it out and see.
Also, even IF the MAY comes to PASS, I rather doubt that it will have any longlasting impact on the realignment that is taking place.
In Christ,
Gerry O’Brien
09 January 2008 at 12:44 am
Anyone who pins their hopes on a meeting is putting their hope in the wrong place. Our hope is in the Triune God and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That’s why we have confidence concerning the future of the Church. That’s why we continue to defend the historic Faith, the Bible as God’s authentic word, the sacerdotal priesthood, and catholic orders.
The preaching of the Faith saves those who hear and receive. The substance of that Faith is preserved in the Bible and in the Tradition of the Church Fathers. Our Communion is with Christ, our great High Priest and as we gather to receive HIS Body and Blood. Catholic orders uphold Church discipline and order. The ordination of non-celibate homosexuals and women as priests represents attempts to break catholic orders, and the Episcopal Church having done so, finds itself in utter chaos. This chaos now threatens the greater Communion. There are only 2 possible ways forward: TEC must repent and make amends for the injury, or those who hold to the marks of the true Church must separate from those who disregard and transgress against the Church.
09 January 2008 at 4:46 am
And a loud AMEN was heard from New Zealand. Thanks Alice.
09 January 2008 at 5:05 am
And from Newfoundland, Canada, Thanks Alice, AMEN
09 January 2008 at 6:37 pm
-deleted-
pls refrain from criticising or making personal comments on fellow users here - Ed
10 January 2008 at 6:30 am
Re: Deleted.
Thanks Ed. A much needed respite. Civility is a learned virtue, isn’t it? I hope the lesson given here is well understood. I look forward to these excellent topics and their threads no longer being held hostage by calculated offensiveness.
Teddy